Monday, April 6"And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not."

Wisdom is the Holy Spirit

Home Forums Bible Studies Wisdom is the Holy Spirit

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 73 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #5454
    Helpful
    Up
    0
    Down
    Not Helpful
    Terence Jackson
    Participant
    • Affiliation: Israelite
    • Country: United States

      Again, I’m going to point out that Solomon is likely speaking in parable and anthropomorphizing wisdom. If he’s not speaking in parable then he is speaking of a created being and that being was given a name which would be wisdom (lowercase). If Solomon meant The Holy Spirit, then he would have used that name.

      We don’t know when TMH created the Angels or any other spirits. Just because Solomon called out wisdom and understanding as named entities, doesn’t mean that those are the only female entities.

      Moreover, wisdom states that she was there during the creation of the earth. She didn’t say she was the only entity outside of TMH.

      In Genesis, there was The Spirit of God in Genesis 1:2 and that was mentioned only that one time. After that, it was God. IMO, that is scripture telling us that while the Earth was void, that meant it was not yet a physical realm. Since it wasn’t a physical realm, the Spirit of God was there. Once the Earth became physical, scripture then deferred to calling him God because he had a physical form.

      #5455
      Helpful
      Up
      0
      Down
      Not Helpful
      Devarim
      Participant
      • Affiliation: The Son
      • Country: USA

        Ode of Solomon 19

        A cup of milk was offered to me, and I drank it in the sweetness of the Lord’s kindness.
        The Son is the cup, and the Father is He who was milked; and the Holy Spirit is She who milked Him;
        Because His breasts were full, and it was undesirable that His milk should be ineffectually released.
        The Holy Spirit opened Her bosom, and mixed the milk of the two breasts of the Father.
        Then She gave the mixture to the generation without their knowing, and those who have received it are in the perfection of the right hand.
        The womb of the Virgin took it, and she received conception and gave birth.
        So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies.
        And she labored and bore the Son but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose.
        And she did not require a midwife, because He caused her to give life.
        She brought forth like a strong man with desire, and she bore according to the manifestation, and she acquired according to the Great Power.
        And she loved with redemption, and guarded with kindness, and declared with grandeur.
        Hallelujah.

        #5456
        Helpful
        Up
        0
        Down
        Not Helpful
        Terence Jackson
        Participant
        • Affiliation: Israelite
        • Country: United States

          I won’t speak to Ode of Solomon. At some point we have to stop reaching. I tend to stick with The Bible and Apocrypha.

          #5458
          Helpful
          Up
          1
          Down
          Not Helpful
          Terence Jackson
          Participant
          • Affiliation: Israelite
          • Country: United States

            This has been on my heart, so I’m going to continue to show you that wisdom is not the Holy Spirit.

            Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

            The word “hosts” means armies. That means the armies were created. If wisdom is not a parable and understanding is not a parable and both of them are created beings, that would mean they were part of the hosts. We know that the number of Angels are great.

            Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

            Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

            Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

            Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

            Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

            If wisdom is a woman and understanding is also a woman, why would it default to wisdom as being the Holy Spirit? Why couldn’t it be understanding? Why wouldn’t it be any of the other multitudes of Angels? If wisdom isn’t a parable, doesn’t this speak to why she was celebrating with the other Angels?

            Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

            Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

            Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

            Let’s take that a little bit further:

            Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

            If wisdom is telling us in Proverbs 8:29 when she was created and it matches Genesis 1:9 when God has the waters gathered in one place. That would mean that in no way could she be the Holy Spirit.

            What is outstanding here is that doing this study has changed my mind about wisdom being a parable. I now believe that wisdom is a female Angel. More importantly, it gives us when the Angels were created and that was day 3. Also, we know that Angels have appeared onto man looking like men and it would probably explain the “us” in Genesis 1:26

            Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

            We know that the Angels are created minister those that will inherit salvation.

            Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

            Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

            Wisdom was created on Day 3. Wisdom is an Angel. Wisdom is a ministering spirit as described in Proverbs.

            Thank you, Devarim, for this because you really made me scrutinize this with new eyes.

            #5461
            Helpful
            Up
            0
            Down
            Not Helpful
            Devarim
            Participant
            • Affiliation: The Son
            • Country: USA

              Glad you stuck with it brother and studied for yourself. You are not all the way there so I have spent some time today pulling more scriptures so we can all gain more understanding. Wisdom is indeed a female spirit. There are many that were begotten but perhaps for another time. I’ll have to also break this up into multiple post to make it easier to study.

              Wisdom could not have been created on day 3 as she was before creation and here on earth during creation verified by these two verses.

              “The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”
              ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

              “When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,”
              ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:27-30‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

              What I have found and I thank God that we are able to study together to bring forth more wisdom and understanding is that one is outward, one inward but both the same. The last verse also takes us back to your other question

              “My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.”
              ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭49:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

              “So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;”
              ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

              “The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.”
              ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

              #5462
              Helpful
              Up
              0
              Down
              Not Helpful
              Devarim
              Participant
              • Affiliation: The Son
              • Country: USA

                The Holy Spirit as the mother of Christ is what I’d like to present again before I go further because I believe this is key for full understanding. Back when I first started truly studying scripture about 7-8 years ago now, one of the very first questions I had upon reading genesis “let us make man in our image” was if God had a wife. Doctrine would have us believe He does not but this is where I believe the true Holy Spirit is found.

                The council of Nicaea decided on the doctrine of the trinity. All 3 parts of the trinity all being God, none created, all always being. I believe Arius at the time had truth and was killed for it. As you’ve come to understand yourself, Wisdom is indeed a created being, and it is the Holy Spirit who gave birth to Christ in spirit before creation.

                “Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.”
                ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:1-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

                Here are a few verses that tie the holy spirit to Christ here on earth.

                “Now the birth of Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”
                ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                Note this is the Son of God we are speaking of yet it says she was found with the child of the Holy Ghost.

                “And Yashua being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,”
                ‭‭Luke‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                Here Christ question their understanding

                “So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.””
                ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15:16-20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

                There are those who call Mary “the mother of God” it was explained to me once that all of those appearances of statues cry blood is because she weeps because what she has been turned into.

                “On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.””
                ‭‭John‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

                Pay close attention to that last quote. Would you ever call your mother “woman”?

                • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Devarim.
                #5464
                Helpful
                Up
                0
                Down
                Not Helpful
                Terence Jackson
                Participant
                • Affiliation: Israelite
                • Country: United States

                  My mistake…I meant to write day 2.

                  Can you explain how she said she came into existence in proverbs 8:29-31 and how that doesn’t match day 2 in Genesis? Even Proverbs 8:27 that you list was a day 2 event as is Proverbs 3:19.

                  Are you saying that wisdom is the Spirit of God? If that’s what you are saying, I will disagree and leave it at that.

                  #5465
                  Helpful
                  Up
                  0
                  Down
                  Not Helpful
                  Devarim
                  Participant
                  • Affiliation: The Son
                  • Country: USA

                    Wisdom and understanding go hand in hand. One an outward manifestation and one inward. Speaking in spiritual terms if Understanding always was, I’d say that was a part of God that Wisdom inherited. Here, Wisdom states that she is Understanding.

                    “For my mouth will speak truth; Wickedness is an abomination to my lips. All the words of my mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked or perverse is in them. They are all plain to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge. Receive my instruction, and not silver, And knowledge rather than choice gold; For wisdom is better than rubies, And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her. “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion. The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength.”
                    ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:7-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

                    Which is in line with this and just about everything other piece of scripture that contain the two.

                    “I have restrained my feet from every evil way, That I may keep Your word. I have not departed from Your judgments, For You Yourself have taught me. How sweet are Your words to my taste, Sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.”
                    ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭119:101-104‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

                    #5466
                    Helpful
                    Up
                    0
                    Down
                    Not Helpful
                    Devarim
                    Participant
                    • Affiliation: The Son
                    • Country: USA

                      To answer your question, yes. Don’t give up so fast though, again, read on your own and decide. Here is your answer as to her being before day two. Read proverbs 8 in it’s entirety but I’m giving you the parts that answer your questions.

                      “I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,”
                      ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:23-27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

                      To make that clear, she’s not God as she was created by God and made one of the trinity. Just as Christ wasn’t always God but made God after He completed his mission here as you can find in Hebrews 1.

                      • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Devarim.
                      #5468
                      Helpful
                      Up
                      0
                      Down
                      Not Helpful
                      Devarim
                      Participant
                      • Affiliation: The Son
                      • Country: USA

                        Here are a few more for you or anyone else who would like to seek for themselves.

                        “And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;”
                        ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭11:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.”
                        ‭‭Job‬ ‭12:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “Wisdom will add years to your life.”
                        ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭9:11‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                        “Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?”
                        ‭‭Job‬ ‭28:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “Let men of understanding tell me, and let a wise man hearken unto me. Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.”
                        ‭‭Job‬ ‭34:34-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “Then wrought Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whom the Lord put wisdom and understanding to know how to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, according to all that the Lord had commanded.”
                        ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭36:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.”
                        ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭119:104‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.”
                        ‭‭Job‬ ‭39:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;”
                        ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                        “To fasten your attention on Wisdom is to gain perfect understanding. If you look for her, you will soon find peace of mind,”
                        ‭‭The Wisdom of Solomon‬ ‭6:15‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                        “Do you love justice? All the virtues are the result of Wisdom’s work: justice and courage, self-control and understanding. Life can offer us nothing more valuable than these.”
                        ‭‭The Wisdom of Solomon‬ ‭8:7‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                        “No one has sailed across the seas to find Wisdom or bought her with precious gold. No one knows how to get to her or how to discover the path that leads to her. The only one who knows Wisdom is God, and he knows all things. With his understanding he found her. He established the earth for all time and filled it with all kinds of animals. The light trembled and obeyed when he called. He sent it forth, and it appeared. He called the stars, and they promptly answered; they took their places and gladly shone to please the one who made them. He is our God, and there is none like him. He discovered the entire path leading to understanding and gave Wisdom to his servant Israel, whom he loved. From that time on, Wisdom appeared on earth and lived among us.”
                        ‭‭Baruch‬ ‭3:30-37‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                        “You have dedicated your life to wisdom, and understanding has been like a mother to you.”
                        ‭‭2 Esdras‬ ‭13:55‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                        “On the next day I suddenly heard a voice saying, “Ezra, open your mouth and drink what I am giving you.” So I opened my mouth, and I was handed a cup full of a fiery-colored liquid, which I took and drank. When I had drunk it, my mind overflowed with understanding, and wisdom increased within me as my memory became perfect. I began to speak and went on talking without stopping. God Most High also gave wisdom to the five men with me, and they took turns writing down what I said. They used an alphabet that they had not known before, and worked for forty days, writing in the daytime and eating at night. I spoke all day long, and I was not silent even at night. During the forty days, ninety-four books were written. At the end of the forty days, God Most High said to me, “You are now to make public the first twenty-four books that you wrote, so that everyone, whether they are worthy or not, may read them. But the last seventy books that you wrote are to be held back and to be given only to those who are wise among your people, because these books contain a flood of understanding, a fountain of wisdom, and a river of knowledge.” Then I did as I was told.”
                        ‭‭2 Esdras‬ ‭14:38-48‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                        “No one has ever learned your will, unless you first gave him Wisdom, and sent your holy spirit down to him.”
                        ‭‭The Wisdom of Solomon‬ ‭9:17‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                        • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Devarim.
                        • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Devarim.
                        #5471
                        Helpful
                        Up
                        0
                        Down
                        Not Helpful
                        Terence Jackson
                        Participant
                        • Affiliation: Israelite
                        • Country: United States

                          I get that you’re saying that I don’t understand. I’m trying to understand though. You point me into the direction of how Christ wasn’t always God and you pointed me to the book that leads to that conclusion. Now you’re saying that the Holy Spirit is wisdom but you’re not pointing to the book that achieves that feat.

                          On the other hand when I point out the day that wisdom starts describing her existence and it being descriptive of day 2, but not descriptive of day 1 when light was called into existance. She says that she rejoiced in Proverbs just like the angels did in Genesis. I give you the scripture where it points out that angels are meant to minister and wisdom tells you HOW to get to her and then to understanding. If wisdom’s teaches you how to get to understanding, she’s ministering and therefore she is an angel.

                          My point is that I’m giving you the scriptures that has lead me from A-Z. What I think we’re not getting from you is the scripture that transforms an Angel to the Holy Spirit. I’m perfectly fine in being wrong but give me the reason that I’m wrong through scripture and explain your interpretation of the scripture on how an Angel (or as you say a created spirit) has transformed instead of saying that I don’t have understanding. I’m asking you to help me understand. If you’re saying I’m close explain what I’m not grasping. Something like the scripture “abc 1:1 wisdom transforms to the Holy spirit”.

                          Edit: It seems like you’re listing scriptures that say “wisdom” in it but none of them explain how wisdom is the Holy Spirit.

                          #5473
                          Helpful
                          Up
                          0
                          Down
                          Not Helpful
                          Devarim
                          Participant
                          • Affiliation: The Son
                          • Country: USA

                            There’s an example right in that last verse.

                            “No one has ever learned your will, unless you first gave him Wisdom, and sent your holy spirit down to him.”
                            ‭‭The Wisdom of Solomon‬ ‭9:17‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                            I still think a better example was in acts and Joel, compared to sirach as on the last page but here it is again.

                            “‘This is what I will do in the last days, God says: I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and daughters will proclaim my message; your young men will see visions, and your old men will have dreams. Yes, even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will proclaim my message.”
                            ‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                            ““Afterward I will pour out my Spirit on everyone: your sons and daughters will proclaim my message; your old people will have dreams, and your young people will see visions. At that time I will pour out my Spirit even on servants, both men and women.”
                            ‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:28-29‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                            “The Lord himself created Wisdom; he saw her and recognized her value, and so he filled everything he made with Wisdom. He gave some measure of Wisdom to everyone, but poured her out on those who love him.”
                            ‭‭Sirach‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                            In all honesty brother, what I would say since you have read these is to just pray on it.

                            “But if any of you lack wisdom, you should pray to God, who will give it to you; because God gives generously and graciously to all.”
                            ‭‭James‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                            “No one can ever exhaust the treasures of Wisdom. Use those treasures and you are God’s friends; he approves of what you learn from her. I pray to God that my thoughts may be worthy of what I have learned, and that I may speak according to his will. He is Wisdom’s guide; he gives correction to those who are wise.”
                            ‭‭The Wisdom of Solomon‬ ‭7:14-15‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                            If I am wrong and the one in need of correction, an answer will be given.

                            • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Devarim.
                            #5475
                            Helpful
                            Up
                            0
                            Down
                            Not Helpful
                            Devarim
                            Participant
                            • Affiliation: The Son
                            • Country: USA

                              Are we not hoping for the spirit to dwell within us? Here it is said that God loves nothing more.

                              “Even though Wisdom acts alone, she can do anything. She makes everything new, although she herself never changes. From generation to generation she enters the souls of holy people, and makes them God’s friends and prophets. There is nothing that God loves more than people who are at home with Wisdom.”
                              ‭‭The Wisdom of Solomon‬ ‭7:27-28‬ ‭GNTD‬‬

                              #5476
                              Helpful
                              Up
                              1
                              Down
                              Not Helpful
                              Terence Jackson
                              Participant
                              • Affiliation: Israelite
                              • Country: United States

                                I am understanding that you are talking about wisdom as an entity. However, you are saying wisdom IS the Holy Spirit. You list scripture that says that wisdom is to be sent in order to get the Holy Spirit. Wisdom and the Holy Spirit are not the same entity in those scriptures. There is also no scripture that you have listed that says that wisdom somehow becomes the Holy Spirit.

                                Look at it this way. If I said I’m leaving the key under my mat so you can get the warmth of my home. You can’t say that the key is the warmth of the house. Just as God says he’s sending wisdom in order for you to get the Holy Spirit does not mean that wisdom is the Holy Spirit. Just as you can’t get to the warmth of my home without the key. You can’t get to the Holy Spirit without wisdom.

                                #5482
                                Helpful
                                Up
                                0
                                Down
                                Not Helpful
                                Devarim
                                Participant
                                • Affiliation: The Son
                                • Country: USA

                                  If you have the Bible app, I urge you to do a search for Wisdom, Understanding, Holy Ghost, and Holy Spirit throughout the KJV, NKJV and GNTD. I’ve done my best to show you the major scripture comparisons and connections but there are many more where perhaps It’d be better to seek on your own and above all, Ask God and His Son to give you answers.

                                Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 73 total)
                                • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.